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Ideas?
Jan 23, 2019 20:44:15 GMT -6
Post by sd51555 on Jan 23, 2019 20:44:15 GMT -6
I don't really know anything about yellow sweet clover. You've seen a soil test from the native grasslands here. I posted it or sent it to ya some time back (maybe a couple of years ago). Not sure if I can dig it again. I kinda remember seeing one too, just can't remember what it said.
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Post by nhmountains on Jan 24, 2019 2:31:36 GMT -6
Some of the biggest deer I've ever seen, and some of the biggest sheds I've found were several miles away from ag. Not saying they don't make the trip but it is a long ways. With the distance between ag and the lack of mast trees my inclination is that nutrition is mainly from native forbs and browse. I don't think natives=bad nutrition. We have heifers that average 2.2lbs gain over the summer (on grass). I know cattle aren't deer but they are both on the same soil... I get to hold a 200 most yrs. The properties that produce them seem somewhat random. Sometimes they are near ag and sometimes they are pasture bucks. Feeding is allowed here with no restrictions. I'm not against that idea at all and I've actually started feeding protein near the house. I'm doing it near the house because I can't afford to feed every deer in the county, I need them to weed themselves out somehow. So I figure that the few that will brave the yard can benefit. I just started a few weeks ago so that verdict is not in yet. Okie seems to be growing large bucks on way poorer soils by feeding them 1000 pounds of corn a week. Age and nutrition seem to be the two factors growing big bucks. Maine produces several Booners each year that roam the big woods where there’s no ag but, has plenty of clear cuts that provide great vegetation and browse but, overall those Booners are probably way under 1% of the population. I’m guessing the same there in your neck of the woods. Would you say there are many/any Booners in a 10 mile radius of your property?
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Ideas?
Jan 24, 2019 2:48:40 GMT -6
Post by MoBuckChaser on Jan 24, 2019 2:48:40 GMT -6
Some of the biggest deer I've ever seen, and some of the biggest sheds I've found were several miles away from ag. Not saying they don't make the trip but it is a long ways. With the distance between ag and the lack of mast trees my inclination is that nutrition is mainly from native forbs and browse. I don't think natives=bad nutrition. We have heifers that average 2.2lbs gain over the summer (on grass). I know cattle aren't deer but they are both on the same soil... I get to hold a 200 most yrs. The properties that produce them seem somewhat random. Sometimes they are near ag and sometimes they are pasture bucks. Feeding is allowed here with no restrictions. I'm not against that idea at all and I've actually started feeding protein near the house. I'm doing it near the house because I can't afford to feed every deer in the county, I need them to weed themselves out somehow. So I figure that the few that will brave the yard can benefit. I just started a few weeks ago so that verdict is not in yet. Okie seems to be growing large bucks on way poorer soils by feeding them 1000 pounds of corn a week. Age and nutrition seem to be the two factors growing big bucks. Maine produces several Booners each year that roam the big woods where there’s no ag but, has plenty of clear cuts that provide great vegetation and browse but, overall those Booners are probably way under 1% of the population. I’m guessing the same there in your neck of the woods. Would you say there are many/any Booners in a 10 mile radius of your property? You want to grow big bucks anywhere in thick cover or in grasslands, you can't have a deer stand every 100 yards. None in his picture!
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Post by Catscratch on Jan 24, 2019 6:36:03 GMT -6
Here is your soil test sd. This is a couple of years old. It was taken from a sample area of around an acre of hilltop grass before I turned the spot into a plot. I need to take a test from some bottom ground just to see what I'm working with there. I believe well maintained grasslands can produce good soil (with cattle management) but certain elements may need to be amended...
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Ideas?
Jan 24, 2019 6:55:02 GMT -6
Post by Catscratch on Jan 24, 2019 6:55:02 GMT -6
Some of the biggest deer I've ever seen, and some of the biggest sheds I've found were several miles away from ag. Not saying they don't make the trip but it is a long ways. With the distance between ag and the lack of mast trees my inclination is that nutrition is mainly from native forbs and browse. I don't think natives=bad nutrition. We have heifers that average 2.2lbs gain over the summer (on grass). I know cattle aren't deer but they are both on the same soil... I get to hold a 200 most yrs. The properties that produce them seem somewhat random. Sometimes they are near ag and sometimes they are pasture bucks. Feeding is allowed here with no restrictions. I'm not against that idea at all and I've actually started feeding protein near the house. I'm doing it near the house because I can't afford to feed every deer in the county, I need them to weed themselves out somehow. So I figure that the few that will brave the yard can benefit. I just started a few weeks ago so that verdict is not in yet. Okie seems to be growing large bucks on way poorer soils by feeding them 1000 pounds of corn a week. Age and nutrition seem to be the two factors growing big bucks. Maine produces several Booners each year that roam the big woods where there’s no ag but, has plenty of clear cuts that provide great vegetation and browse but, overall those Booners are probably way under 1% of the population. I’m guessing the same there in your neck of the woods. Would you say there are many/any Booners in a 10 mile radius of your property? Honestly, I don't think Okie is "growing" big bucks. I think he is giving them an island of refuge surrounded by poaching neighbors and high pressure... and a never ending supply of candy. He's stated several times that he doesn't think antler mass or size has gone up with his feeders. He feels that acorn crops have the biggest impact on antler size. I think Baker grows big bucks. I think he has nutrition figured out and deer on his property reflect that point. The big woods experience is exactly why I asked this site for opinions. I know you northern guys hunt vast expanses of often low quality vegetation. I value that perspective! If I had to guess (based on what I see, what gets shot, and what the mailman reports) we have a booner every couple of miles. Maybe 3-5 in a 10sq mile radius? I don't really know though and am just throwing out a number that might change by the end of summer after watching some bean fields. Maybe I should just throw a huge feeder out and hunt near it every year. It would certainly be cost effective compared to other things I could try... but I just don't get into it that much. I feed cattle/animals all the time, it isn't interesting. I'm not against feed for nutrition. I'm completely fine with supplementing protein but I know that 50lbs of corn disappears overnight. I'm not going down that rabbit hole on a large scale. Mo is right, not a lot of stands in that view. My deer don't feel the pressure that most of the country does.
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Post by Sandbur on Jan 24, 2019 7:32:12 GMT -6
You all ready have great bucks. To grow bigger ones, you either need thick river bottoms that nobody enters or at least 40 (20?) acres of chest high native grasses that nobody enters.
Advice should be taken with a grain of salt as I know nothing about your habitat.
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Ideas?
Jan 24, 2019 7:46:40 GMT -6
Post by sd51555 on Jan 24, 2019 7:46:40 GMT -6
How many acres you looking to bite off Cat? All of them, or a few target areas for deer? I think a good first step would be 2 tons of calcitic pell lime. With 7.8% organic matter, you may not need to do anything with sulfur. A good shot of lime may be the biggest and easiest impact to start with. It's easy to understand why you get such good production when it rains based on that OM. I like the idea of adding legumes and deep rooting perennial broadleafs.
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Ideas?
Jan 24, 2019 7:49:46 GMT -6
Post by MN Slick on Jan 24, 2019 7:49:46 GMT -6
Do you have any WSG's? Could you surround some of your thickets with them to add to your overall cover and still have enough area for the cattle?
Regarding high scoring bucks the more I study trail cam pics and the more I learn about mature bucks the more apparent it becomes that most bucks just don't have the potential to get "big". I just listened to a podcast with a professor from Mississippi State who mentioned that 60-70% of bucks are average. In his area this was 8 points and about 128”. I'm not sure what average is in my area or yours but that leaves a damn small percentage with potential to get outsized. It most areas it becomes luck if the right buck gets enough age on him to show his goods but you are in Kansas so that is a good start.
Have you had quite a few bucks over the years over 160 on your ground?
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Ideas?
Jan 24, 2019 8:02:47 GMT -6
Post by Catscratch on Jan 24, 2019 8:02:47 GMT -6
You all ready have great bucks. To grow bigger ones, you either need thick river bottoms that nobody enters or at least 40 (20?) acres of chest high native grasses that nobody enters.Advice should be taken with a grain of salt as I know nothing about your habitat. Probably the truest words spoken on the subject right there!
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Post by Catscratch on Jan 24, 2019 8:06:15 GMT -6
Do you have any WSG's? Could you surround some of your thickets with them to add to your overall cover and still have enough area for the cattle? Regarding high scoring bucks the more I study trail cam pics and the more I learn about mature bucks the more apparent it becomes that most bucks just don't have the potential to get "big". I just listened to a podcast with a professor from Mississippi State who mentioned that 60-70% of bucks are average. In his area this was 8 points and about 128”. I'm not sure what average is in my area or yours but that leaves a damn small percentage with potential to get outsized. It most areas it becomes luck if the right buck gets enough age on him to show his goods but you are in Kansas so that is a good start. Have you had quite a few bucks over the years over 160 on your ground? Plenty. I shoot one every couple of years but pass on them quite often in an attempt to shoot a bigger one. I'm going to say AVERAGE mature = 140-155. In the future I plan to have more area for thickets and cover, it's going to be slow though and not an immediate thing.
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Post by Foggy on Jan 24, 2019 8:55:36 GMT -6
You all ready have great bucks. To grow bigger ones, you either need thick river bottoms that nobody enters or at least 40 (20?) acres of chest high native grasses that nobody enters. Advice should be taken with a grain of salt as I know nothing. (<----fixed it for you. Grin. )
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Ideas?
Jan 24, 2019 9:08:18 GMT -6
Post by sd51555 on Jan 24, 2019 9:08:18 GMT -6
I can't believe I didn't remember this earlier.
Bale grazing.
Have you thought about feeding some round bales where you are aiming to improve? I never did bale grazing, but where I fed truckload pumpkins in the Todd Plot, the following crop came in significantly better where the concentration of pee and poo fell.
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Post by Catscratch on Jan 24, 2019 9:30:28 GMT -6
I can't believe I didn't remember this earlier. Bale grazing. Have you thought about feeding some round bales where you are aiming to improve? I never did bale grazing, but where I fed truckload pumpkins in the Todd Plot, the following crop came in significantly better where the concentration of pee and poo fell. Do it all the time. Bales and cubes are placed strategically to place fertilizer/mineral where I want it, or where the pasture needs it. I often add seed to a spot before feeding so that seed gets stomped in and fertilized while they eat. This is part of my pasture improvement method. It's basically making a foodplot with no equipment or input costs other than seed. This is really my plan of attack for this whole thread... improve pasture fertility, mineral mining (with tap rooted forbs), nitrogen fixation (with legumes), and palatability with proper pH. We feed cattle mineral, a percentage of this does not stay in the cow and gets pooped out so spreading mineral is minimized.
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Post by sd51555 on Jan 24, 2019 9:34:56 GMT -6
I can't believe I didn't remember this earlier. Bale grazing. Have you thought about feeding some round bales where you are aiming to improve? I never did bale grazing, but where I fed truckload pumpkins in the Todd Plot, the following crop came in significantly better where the concentration of pee and poo fell. Do it all the time. Bales and cubes are placed strategically to place fertilizer/mineral where I want it, or where the pasture needs it. I often add seed to a spot before feeding so that seed gets stomped in and fertilized while they eat. This is part of my pasture improvement method. It's basically making a foodplot with no equipment or input costs other than seed. This is really my plan of attack for this whole thread... improve pasture fertility, mineral mining (with tap rooted forbs), nitrogen fixation (with legumes), and palatability with proper pH. We feed cattle mineral, a percentage of this does not stay in the cow and gets pooped out so spreading mineral is minimized. You got this thing down then. Very nice.
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Post by nhmountains on Jan 24, 2019 9:53:21 GMT -6
I can't believe I didn't remember this earlier. Bale grazing. Have you thought about feeding some round bales where you are aiming to improve? I never did bale grazing, but where I fed truckload pumpkins in the Todd Plot, the following crop came in significantly better where the concentration of pee and poo fell. Do it all the time. Bales and cubes are placed strategically to place fertilizer/mineral where I want it, or where the pasture needs it. I often add seed to a spot before feeding so that seed gets stomped in and fertilized while they eat. This is part of my pasture improvement method. It's basically making a foodplot with no equipment or input costs other than seed. This is really my plan of attack for this whole thread... improve pasture fertility, mineral mining (with tap rooted forbs), nitrogen fixation (with legumes), and palatability with proper pH. We feed cattle mineral, a percentage of this does not stay in the cow and gets pooped out so spreading mineral is minimized. I was joking about the feeder. I think you’re on the right track. Age and security will be what gets them to Booner status. Make an island in the middle of those bottoms where they’ll stay or go to for security. Do the deer there get stressed much in the winter like the northern bucks?
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