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Post by Sandbur on Apr 30, 2021 6:26:32 GMT -6
Last night, I watched a YouTube video from Skillcult on Cherry Cox apples. It got me to thinking about factors that affect flavor.
I have some trees that have the berry/ cherry flavor he describes, but only in some years or at a certain stage of ripeness.
I have another seedling, where a specific flavor is only present in some apples. Here I suspect the apples ripen at different rates. Does a longer bloom period, lead to variation in ripening times?
Other factors in flavor?
Go ahead and speculate!
(Post covid here, and flavor/ smell is slowly returning.)
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Post by Sandbur on Apr 30, 2021 6:29:17 GMT -6
I have some Cherry Cox scion and am looking forward to trying the apple. I detect the berry/ cherry flavor more in the dark red crabs like grafted Dolgo and the seedling I call ABC. They need to be quite ripe.
Winter/ spring chill hours is another factor in taste.
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Post by smsmith on Apr 30, 2021 6:30:52 GMT -6
I believe it was Eliza Greenman that wrote something about rootstock impacting flavor, specifically crabapple rootstock as I recall.
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Post by nhmountains on Apr 30, 2021 7:47:14 GMT -6
I believe it was Eliza Greenman that wrote something about rootstock impacting flavor, specifically crabapple rootstock as I recall. I was watching a grafting video from the guy in Washington state from a couple years ago. He was grafting over a variety to Honeycrisp. He said the reason was it didn’t have the taste due to their area verses the taste from other parts of the US. I think it was pink lady that he was replacing so I guess there’s lots of variables. |
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Post by Catscratch on Apr 30, 2021 7:59:23 GMT -6
Always heard that summer heat and drought conditions affect peppers. Sd and his cat are fairly certain that gypsum affects clover palatability. I can't get deer to eat turnips, plenty of speculation that soil composition has something to do with it.
I wonder if soil composition and fertility could change flavors? I read recently to dump hog feed under your weed barrier to attract worms which conditions the soil around the roots.
Dead coons vs opposums vs skunks dumped under the trees? Skunks have sulfur...
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Post by Sandbur on Apr 30, 2021 8:18:52 GMT -6
I believe it was Eliza Greenman that wrote something about rootstock impacting flavor, specifically crabapple rootstock as I recall. I remember a discussion about some genetic transfer of information from rootstock to grafted variety. |
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Post by Sandbur on Apr 30, 2021 8:19:50 GMT -6
I believe it was Eliza Greenman that wrote something about rootstock impacting flavor, specifically crabapple rootstock as I recall. I was watching a grafting video from the guy in Washington state from a couple years ago. He was grafting over a variety to Honeycrisp. He said the reason was it didn’t have the taste due to their area verses the taste from other parts of the US. I think it was pink lady that he was replacing so I guess there’s lots of variables. I heard that many of the cheaper and poorer tasting HC are from areas without the chill hours. |
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Post by Sandbur on Apr 30, 2021 8:26:08 GMT -6
Always heard that summer heat and drought conditions affect peppers. Sd and his cat are fairly certain that gypsum affects clover palatability. I can't get deer to eat turnips, plenty of speculation that soil composition has something to do with it. I wonder if soil composition and fertility could change flavors? I read recently to dump hog feed under your weed barrier to attract worms which conditions the soil around the roots. Dead coons vs opposums vs skunks dumped under the trees? Skunks have sulfur... Deer just nibble on turnips here. I have tried them off and on for 25 years. Perhaps it would be different now that we have a higher deer population. Up north, they eat turnips. I have wondered about soil composition, soil pH, in combination with different rootstocks changing apple taste. I see a difference in chestnut crab taste and color between my front and back field. Soils, sunshine, and rootstock are different. I have read that crabapples will tolerate about 1/2 unit lower pH. If so, and if planted on low pH soil, I could see flavors of the apple above being different. Perhaps the crab apple root would pick up more nutrients than rootstock that demands a higher pH. |
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Post by smsmith on Apr 30, 2021 8:30:45 GMT -6
Always heard that summer heat and drought conditions affect peppers. Sd and his cat are fairly certain that gypsum affects clover palatability. I can't get deer to eat turnips, plenty of speculation that soil composition has something to do with it. I wonder if soil composition and fertility could change flavors? I read recently to dump hog feed under your weed barrier to attract worms which conditions the soil around the roots. Dead coons vs opposums vs skunks dumped under the trees? Skunks have sulfur... It also affects apples and pears. Dry and hot (assuming it's not too dry and hot...drought can kill fruit trees) makes for higher brix ratings in most tree fruit. A cool, wet summer usually leads to juicy but bland fruit. edit...terroir is a given factor in wine production. I don't know why it wouldn't also impact most anything grown in soil. I know beets grown on this soil taste different than beets grown at my or my wife's old place. edit...here's the article from Eliza G. elizapples.com/2016/12/04/rootstocks-do-they-impact-flavor/ |
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Post by Bob on Apr 30, 2021 9:23:18 GMT -6
Always heard that summer heat and drought conditions affect peppers. Sd and his cat are fairly certain that gypsum affects clover palatability. I can't get deer to eat turnips, plenty of speculation that soil composition has something to do with it. I wonder if soil composition and fertility could change flavors? I read recently to dump hog feed under your weed barrier to attract worms which conditions the soil around the roots. Dead coons vs opposums vs skunks dumped under the trees? Skunks have sulfur... You're dabbling in advanced nutritional-horticultural considerations. Not all sources of a given nutrient are created equal. Your critter sources are among the best. NPK sources are something to be concerned with. Some are additive and build soil biology, OM, worms, cycles, etc. Some are carcinogenic, burn up OM, and shut down biological systems. Those turn your soil into a put and take system, or what I call necrophilic horticulture. We're lucky we can get our hands on a few natural sources of sulfur to carry us through until we get to an off-grid fertility system. I mentioned a while back I've been working on a recommendation to quit using gypsum in some circumstances eventually. That isn't ready yet, but we're getting closer. This is a really cool subject if you've gotten to the point where the details are important to you. I follow a dude in ND that squawks about how much better his produce is compared to high capital produce. He sent off a grocery store steak and one of his steaks to have the fats analyzed. The quacks say a 3:1 ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 is important to keep from blowing out your heart or touching off any number of other human ailments. The grid steak came in at a ratio of something like 50:1, or ticking time bomb. His came in at 1.5:1. I think the lesson here is that there are no shortcuts in nature. If we think we found one, we're probably missing something, and it's gonna be bad when we find out what it is. |
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Post by Sandbur on Apr 30, 2021 10:02:29 GMT -6
Always heard that summer heat and drought conditions affect peppers. Sd and his cat are fairly certain that gypsum affects clover palatability. I can't get deer to eat turnips, plenty of speculation that soil composition has something to do with it. I wonder if soil composition and fertility could change flavors? I read recently to dump hog feed under your weed barrier to attract worms which conditions the soil around the roots. Dead coons vs opposums vs skunks dumped under the trees? Skunks have sulfur... It also affects apples and pears. Dry and hot (assuming it's not too dry and hot...drought can kill fruit trees) makes for higher brix ratings in most tree fruit. A cool, wet summer usually leads to juicy but bland fruit. edit...terroir is a given factor in wine production. I don't know why it wouldn't also impact most anything grown in soil. I know beets grown on this soil taste different than beets grown at my or my wife's old place. edit...here's the article from Eliza G. elizapples.com/2016/12/04/rootstocks-do-they-impact-flavor/The 1873 quote and the mention of rootstocks affecting nutrient uptake are interesting. I also find it hard to believe that she knows no one grafting cider varieties to seedlings. I believe SLN has done so for years . Aren’t also antanovka rootstocks seedlings? I feel parts of the East just are fixed on propagated rootstocks and they might do better in those climates. It looks to me like native crabs and dolgo rootstock do well here. |
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Post by smsmith on Apr 30, 2021 10:10:10 GMT -6
It also affects apples and pears. Dry and hot (assuming it's not too dry and hot...drought can kill fruit trees) makes for higher brix ratings in most tree fruit. A cool, wet summer usually leads to juicy but bland fruit. edit...terroir is a given factor in wine production. I don't know why it wouldn't also impact most anything grown in soil. I know beets grown on this soil taste different than beets grown at my or my wife's old place. edit...here's the article from Eliza G. elizapples.com/2016/12/04/rootstocks-do-they-impact-flavor/The 1873 quote and the mention of rootstocks affecting nutrient uptake are interesting. I also find it hard to believe that she knows no one grafting cider varieties to seedlings. I believe SLN has done so for years . Aren’t also antanovka rootstocks seedlings?I feel parts of the East just are fixed on propagated rootstocks and they might do better in those climates. It looks to me like native crabs and dolgo rootstock do well here. Yep. I think what clonal rootstocks offer the most is that they are dependable. You know their strengths and weaknesses. Every seedling is unique. Some of my dolgo and ranetka rootstocks have been great. Some haven't. I've got both clonal and seedling rootstocks here. Time will tell what, if any differences I notice when it comes to fruit taste. |
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Post by Catscratch on Apr 30, 2021 11:04:38 GMT -6
Always heard that summer heat and drought conditions affect peppers. Sd and his cat are fairly certain that gypsum affects clover palatability. I can't get deer to eat turnips, plenty of speculation that soil composition has something to do with it. I wonder if soil composition and fertility could change flavors? I read recently to dump hog feed under your weed barrier to attract worms which conditions the soil around the roots. Dead coons vs opposums vs skunks dumped under the trees? Skunks have sulfur... You're dabbling in advanced nutritional-horticultural considerations. Not all sources of a given nutrient are created equal. Your critter sources are among the best. NPK sources are something to be concerned with. Some are additive and build soil biology, OM, worms, cycles, etc. Some are carcinogenic, burn up OM, and shut down biological systems. Those turn your soil into a put and take system, or what I call necrophilic horticulture. We're lucky we can get our hands on a few natural sources of sulfur to carry us through until we get to an off-grid fertility system. I mentioned a while back I've been working on a recommendation to quit using gypsum in some circumstances eventually. That isn't ready yet, but we're getting closer. This is a really cool subject if you've gotten to the point where the details are important to you. I follow a dude in ND that squawks about how much better his produce is compared to high capital produce. He sent off a grocery store steak and one of his steaks to have the fats analyzed. The quacks say a 3:1 ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 is important to keep from blowing out your heart or touching off any number of other human ailments. The grid steak came in at a ratio of something like 50:1, or ticking time bomb. His came in at 1.5:1. I think the lesson here is that there are no shortcuts in nature. If we think we found one, we're probably missing something, and it's gonna be bad when we find out what it is. Really delving into some serious stuff here sd. I view nature as the shortcut. Anything I do is either classified as a disruption to nature, or an assist (and sometimes the disruption becomes the assist). You mention elements and ratio's. What about macromolecules and ease of metabolism into those elements? Did you know that the optimum ratio of carbs to proteins for a post workout recovery meal is 3/4:1? Go too high on proteins and you risk slow rehydration, go too high on carbs and you risk other problems. Each protein may contain 10's of thousands of nitrogen's, or maybe just a few. Same with carbs and carbon. Does the system have the right enzymes to break them down, at the right pH and temp to do it? What fungi and bacteria have the enzymes needed to do your work? Lots to look at if you want to go there. |
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Post by Bob on Apr 30, 2021 11:31:56 GMT -6
You're dabbling in advanced nutritional-horticultural considerations. Not all sources of a given nutrient are created equal. Your critter sources are among the best. NPK sources are something to be concerned with. Some are additive and build soil biology, OM, worms, cycles, etc. Some are carcinogenic, burn up OM, and shut down biological systems. Those turn your soil into a put and take system, or what I call necrophilic horticulture. We're lucky we can get our hands on a few natural sources of sulfur to carry us through until we get to an off-grid fertility system. I mentioned a while back I've been working on a recommendation to quit using gypsum in some circumstances eventually. That isn't ready yet, but we're getting closer. This is a really cool subject if you've gotten to the point where the details are important to you. I follow a dude in ND that squawks about how much better his produce is compared to high capital produce. He sent off a grocery store steak and one of his steaks to have the fats analyzed. The quacks say a 3:1 ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 is important to keep from blowing out your heart or touching off any number of other human ailments. The grid steak came in at a ratio of something like 50:1, or ticking time bomb. His came in at 1.5:1. I think the lesson here is that there are no shortcuts in nature. If we think we found one, we're probably missing something, and it's gonna be bad when we find out what it is. Really delving into some serious stuff here sd. I view nature as the shortcut. Anything I do is either classified as a disruption to nature, or an assist (and sometimes the disruption becomes the assist). You mention elements and ratio's. What about macromolecules and ease of metabolism into those elements? Did you know that the optimum ratio of carbs to proteins for a post workout recovery meal is 3/4:1? Go too high on proteins and you risk slow rehydration, go too high on carbs and you risk other problems. Each protein may contain 10's of thousands of nitrogen's, or maybe just a few. Same with carbs and carbon. Does the system have the right enzymes to break them down, at the right pH and temp to do it? What fungi and bacteria have the enzymes needed to do your work? Lots to look at if you want to go there. It's the ultimate shortcut in the right context. But it ain't easy getting there. I've been chasing this for years longer than I've been on this earth, and I'm still not satisfied with the amount I've been able to do. |
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Post by Sandbur on Apr 30, 2021 12:29:19 GMT -6
The 1873 quote and the mention of rootstocks affecting nutrient uptake are interesting. I also find it hard to believe that she knows no one grafting cider varieties to seedlings. I believe SLN has done so for years . Aren’t also antanovka rootstocks seedlings?I feel parts of the East just are fixed on propagated rootstocks and they might do better in those climates. It looks to me like native crabs and dolgo rootstock do well here. Yep. I think what clonal rootstocks offer the most is that they are dependable. You know their strengths and weaknesses. Every seedling is unique. Some of my dolgo and ranetka rootstocks have been great. Some haven't. I've got both clonal and seedling rootstocks here. Time will tell what, if any differences I notice when it comes to fruit taste. Good points. I have dolgo seedlings that have grown like gang busters and a few have done nothing. |
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