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Post by smsmith on Sept 28, 2023 8:46:13 GMT -6
I would be shocked if there are harvest #'s that paint a clear picture that crossbow in archery season is "statistically impacting the herd". Especially looking at the 3 year trend with decreasing harvest each year, if we hit the same harvest as last year people will say "see, it didn't change anything" with no idea if harvest would have been lower than last year without xbow. I have a hard time with any argument that suggests more hunter hours (pressure) with more efficient weapons has zero impact on a buck's odds of survival. My focus here is on areas where there is decent or better habitat and a lack of intense predator mortality, thus plenty of deer. We have many areas in MN with ample deer but still poor hunting because bucks aren't able to get any age. I don't know how old you are, but I used to see comments pretty much identical to yours back when the interwebs started and QDMA put a forum up. Right around '99 as I recall. Nothing regarding buck management (outside of the small section in SE MN) has changed since then. Nothing will change in the next 23 or 24 years either. If you want better buck quality on your property, the only answer is to buy in the "right" neighborhood. Either that, or become an extremely persuasive guy amongst your neighbors. Since you're a guy from the metro, be prepared to meet a lot of resistance
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Post by caveman on Sept 28, 2023 8:57:57 GMT -6
I would be shocked if there are harvest #'s that paint a clear picture that crossbow in archery season is "statistically impacting the herd". Especially looking at the 3 year trend with decreasing harvest each year, if we hit the same harvest as last year people will say "see, it didn't change anything" with no idea if harvest would have been lower than last year without xbow. I have a hard time with any argument that suggests more hunter hours (pressure) with more efficient weapons has zero impact on a buck's odds of survival. My focus here is on areas where there is decent or better habitat and a lack of intense predator mortality, thus plenty of deer. We have many areas in MN with ample deer but still poor hunting because bucks aren't able to get any age.
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose.
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Post by Bwoods11 on Sept 28, 2023 9:51:04 GMT -6
My neighbor has 200+ acres and I have 160 by Swift Falls in Swift County MN. It’s prime habitat, I was so excited to buy it a few years back . I had to pinch myself !! My neighbor text me the other day …”have you seen a shooter yet” ? No I have not—I text back . 360 acres combined, half wooded, CRP , creeks, food plots.. borders a no hunting park ! No mature bucks as of yet ?
Its Minnesota—age is tough . I shot a good one last year on that farm and I don’t know if I’ll ever see another buck get past 5 years old. How he made it, had to be his instinct, but also some luck involved. A lot of hunters, a lot of pressure, long seasons, wrong timing on seasons. I used to get a bit worked up about it. Now I just (deal) with it !
I think the last thing the DNR and/or the Minnesota legislature cares about is quality bucks. It’s tags, money, squirrels for the Hmong, 6 walleye limits, how many minorities go to State Parks.
We are not dealing with whitetail experts here. I doubt some of these DNR employees or Mn Legislators have ever even hunted deer with a serious passion like most of us on here !
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windgypsy
Full Member
Posts: 126
Likes: 162
Location: Kanabec, Wright, and Itasca Counties, MN
Zone: 4A / 3B
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Post by windgypsy on Sept 28, 2023 9:51:51 GMT -6
I would be shocked if there are harvest #'s that paint a clear picture that crossbow in archery season is "statistically impacting the herd". Especially looking at the 3 year trend with decreasing harvest each year, if we hit the same harvest as last year people will say "see, it didn't change anything" with no idea if harvest would have been lower than last year without xbow. I have a hard time with any argument that suggests more hunter hours (pressure) with more efficient weapons has zero impact on a buck's odds of survival. My focus here is on areas where there is decent or better habitat and a lack of intense predator mortality, thus plenty of deer. We have many areas in MN with ample deer but still poor hunting because bucks aren't able to get any age. I don't know how old you are, but I used to see comments pretty much identical to yours back when the interwebs started and QDMA put a forum up. Right around '99 as I recall. Nothing regarding buck management (outside of the small section in SE MN) has changed since then. Nothing will change in the next 23 or 24 years either. If you want better buck quality on your property, the only answer is to buy in the "right" neighborhood. Either that, or become an extremely persuasive guy amongst your neighbors. Since you're a guy from the metro, be prepared to meet a lot of resistance Understand that my thoughts are nothing new and people who actually tried to influence deer management for the better failed. That there is seemingly not a shred of influence in the state advocating for quality hunting these days is sad when you see what IA has in Skip Sligh and company and what the northern rockies have with Randy Newberg and company. MN has nothing. I've been on the fence about even approaching my neighbors with feelers on their thoughts about a deer co-op or if it has ever been discussed in the area before. Your assumptions match mine that reception is not likely to be positive. The "right" neighborhood seems like a tough in. Seems the people already in them are ready to snatch up anything that comes available, have friends that would, or are already actively pursuing stuff off market. If anyone in the right neighborhood has a lead on something and wouldn't mind a neighbor who's a lousy hunter, doesn't invite more than a person or 2 to hunt, and wont be around much, I know a guy who might be interested haha!
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windgypsy
Full Member
Posts: 126
Likes: 162
Location: Kanabec, Wright, and Itasca Counties, MN
Zone: 4A / 3B
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Post by windgypsy on Sept 28, 2023 9:54:16 GMT -6
I would be shocked if there are harvest #'s that paint a clear picture that crossbow in archery season is "statistically impacting the herd". Especially looking at the 3 year trend with decreasing harvest each year, if we hit the same harvest as last year people will say "see, it didn't change anything" with no idea if harvest would have been lower than last year without xbow. I have a hard time with any argument that suggests more hunter hours (pressure) with more efficient weapons has zero impact on a buck's odds of survival. My focus here is on areas where there is decent or better habitat and a lack of intense predator mortality, thus plenty of deer. We have many areas in MN with ample deer but still poor hunting because bucks aren't able to get any age.
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose.
We've got more than nothing, that something is just rare. Which is why it is disheartening to see steps taken to make it more rare.
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Post by smsmith on Sept 28, 2023 10:25:52 GMT -6
I don't know how old you are, but I used to see comments pretty much identical to yours back when the interwebs started and QDMA put a forum up. Right around '99 as I recall. Nothing regarding buck management (outside of the small section in SE MN) has changed since then. Nothing will change in the next 23 or 24 years either. If you want better buck quality on your property, the only answer is to buy in the "right" neighborhood. Either that, or become an extremely persuasive guy amongst your neighbors. Since you're a guy from the metro, be prepared to meet a lot of resistance Understand that my thoughts are nothing new and people who actually tried to influence deer management for the better failed. That there is seemingly not a shred of influence in the state advocating for quality hunting these days is sad when you see what IA has in Skip Sligh and company and what the northern rockies have with Randy Newberg and company. MN has nothing. I've been on the fence about even approaching my neighbors with feelers on their thoughts about a deer co-op or if it has ever been discussed in the area before. Your assumptions match mine that reception is not likely to be positive. The "right" neighborhood seems like a tough in. Seems the people already in them are ready to snatch up anything that comes available, have friends that would, or are already actively pursuing stuff off market. If anyone in the right neighborhood has a lead on something and wouldn't mind a neighbor who's a lousy hunter, doesn't invite more than a person or 2 to hunt, and wont be around much, I know a guy who might be interested haha! Yep I got relatively lucky with my purchase. This sure isn't any Iowa like Shangri La, but it isn't bad. Of course, I've also put literally hundreds of hours into habitat management. That didn't hurt anything either. I've learned that comparing MN to any of the surrounding states is a fool's errand. None of those states elect Somalian muslims who want to kill us to office. They also don't elect gender confused people. If you want to compare MN and its policies to another state, look to California.
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windgypsy
Full Member
Posts: 126
Likes: 162
Location: Kanabec, Wright, and Itasca Counties, MN
Zone: 4A / 3B
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Post by windgypsy on Sept 28, 2023 11:04:16 GMT -6
Understand that my thoughts are nothing new and people who actually tried to influence deer management for the better failed. That there is seemingly not a shred of influence in the state advocating for quality hunting these days is sad when you see what IA has in Skip Sligh and company and what the northern rockies have with Randy Newberg and company. MN has nothing. I've been on the fence about even approaching my neighbors with feelers on their thoughts about a deer co-op or if it has ever been discussed in the area before. Your assumptions match mine that reception is not likely to be positive. The "right" neighborhood seems like a tough in. Seems the people already in them are ready to snatch up anything that comes available, have friends that would, or are already actively pursuing stuff off market. If anyone in the right neighborhood has a lead on something and wouldn't mind a neighbor who's a lousy hunter, doesn't invite more than a person or 2 to hunt, and wont be around much, I know a guy who might be interested haha! Yep I got relatively lucky with my purchase. This sure isn't any Iowa like Shangri La, but it isn't bad. Of course, I've also put literally hundreds of hours into habitat management. That didn't hurt anything either. I've learned that comparing MN to any of the surrounding states is a fool's errand. None of those states elect Somalian muslims who want to kill us to office. They also don't elect gender confused people. If you want to compare MN and its policies to another state, look to California. I think I'd be happy to be in your neighborhood. I've seen the bucks on my friend's place near you over the years and my friend's family aren't neighbors I'd want to have as far as hunting goes..
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Post by Sandbur on Sept 28, 2023 11:06:02 GMT -6
Understand that my thoughts are nothing new and people who actually tried to influence deer management for the better failed. That there is seemingly not a shred of influence in the state advocating for quality hunting these days is sad when you see what IA has in Skip Sligh and company and what the northern rockies have with Randy Newberg and company. MN has nothing. I've been on the fence about even approaching my neighbors with feelers on their thoughts about a deer co-op or if it has ever been discussed in the area before. Your assumptions match mine that reception is not likely to be positive. The "right" neighborhood seems like a tough in. Seems the people already in them are ready to snatch up anything that comes available, have friends that would, or are already actively pursuing stuff off market. If anyone in the right neighborhood has a lead on something and wouldn't mind a neighbor who's a lousy hunter, doesn't invite more than a person or 2 to hunt, and wont be around much, I know a guy who might be interested haha! Yep I got relatively lucky with my purchase. This sure isn't any Iowa like Shangri La, but it isn't bad. Of course, I've also put literally hundreds of hours into habitat management. That didn't hurt anything either. I've learned that comparing MN to any of the surrounding states is a fool's errand. None of those states elect Somalian muslims who want to kill us to office. They also don't elect gender confused people. If you want to compare MN and its policies to another state, look to California. Sad but true.
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Post by smsmith on Sept 28, 2023 11:11:08 GMT -6
Yep I got relatively lucky with my purchase. This sure isn't any Iowa like Shangri La, but it isn't bad. Of course, I've also put literally hundreds of hours into habitat management. That didn't hurt anything either. I've learned that comparing MN to any of the surrounding states is a fool's errand. None of those states elect Somalian muslims who want to kill us to office. They also don't elect gender confused people. If you want to compare MN and its policies to another state, look to California. I think I'd be happy to be in your neighborhood. I've seen the bucks on my friend's place near you over the years and my friend's family aren't neighbors I'd want to have as far as hunting goes.. Lots of P&Y and plenty of B&C bucks taken in this general area. One key is to look for areas where there are no mile x mile sections. Finding blocks with no intersecting roads for multiple miles in at least one direction is a good start. I've got to drive about 4 miles south before I hit another intersecting E/W road. East to west it's about 2 miles to the next intersecting road. Swamps and environmental lakes make a big difference
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Post by Sandbur on Sept 28, 2023 11:15:50 GMT -6
I am less concerned about quality buck management compared to 20 years ago as you all know. I do hope they closely watch crossbow harvest and doe harvest. Many northern and public land areas don’t need a big jump in doe harvest. That was the reason I voted against crossbow use at our Chapter MDHA meeting. All of us present voted against increased use of crossbows. we need adequate doe numbers and I kind of believe one thing I learned from Brooks. If you are concerned about exceptional bucks, you need lots of fawns being born early in the fawning season. You need the high numbers of fawns to increase the chances of one with better growth potential showing up. of course, there is a tipping point where there are too many deer for quality forage.
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Post by caveman on Sept 28, 2023 11:29:21 GMT -6
I would be surprised if archers did not have to apply for doe permits next year. Wonder if the DNR could shut down archery season early this year due to excessive harvest.
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Post by benmnwi on Sept 28, 2023 11:48:09 GMT -6
I think I'd be happy to be in your neighborhood. I've seen the bucks on my friend's place near you over the years and my friend's family aren't neighbors I'd want to have as far as hunting goes.. Lots of P&Y and plenty of B&C bucks taken in this general area. One key is to look for areas where there are no mile x mile sections. Finding blocks with no intersecting roads for multiple miles in at least one direction is a good start. I've got to drive about 4 miles south before I hit another intersecting E/W road. East to west it's about 2 miles to the next intersecting road. Swamps and environmental lakes make a big difference Your point about roadless areas and swamps is very accurate. If you can have that along with some ag and solid deer numbers, there will be big bucks. My Rusk County place was like that when I first bought it in 2006. That whole area is about 1/3 upland woods, 1/3 swamp and 1/3 ag. That 1/3 swamp pretty much guarantees a nearby sanctuary for most bucks to escape from hunting pressure. At that point, it's just a numbers game and if you have enough deer there will be a solid % that are older bucks since there are so many swamps to escape most hunters. A couple bad winters combined with high predator numbers made that all come crashing down and stay down for years, but I'm optimistic that once the deer numbers bounce back up the big bucks will follow in a couple years.
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Post by wklman on Sept 28, 2023 11:48:49 GMT -6
Like I said before, total harvest will be the same with or without crossbows. The only thing that will change is that there will be less deer killed in rifle and more during archery. Those deer that get killed by crossbows would have gotten shot during rifle season. It's just a shift. Nothing more.
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Post by smsmith on Sept 28, 2023 12:08:40 GMT -6
I would be surprised if archers did not have to apply for doe permits next year.Wonder if the DNR could shut down archery season early this year due to excessive harvest. In 215? I'd shit my pants if that happened. Beau Liddell will be doing backflips if archers decrease the herd here.
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Post by smsmith on Sept 28, 2023 12:12:15 GMT -6
Like I said before, total harvest will be the same with or without crossbows. The only thing that will change is that there will be less deer killed in rifle and more during archery. Those deer that get killed by crossbows would have gotten shot during rifle season. It's just a shift. Nothing more. I tend to agree with you. However, if that shift occurs and are you aren't an archer/crossbower...then you're shit out of luck. Right now, my plan is to hunt with shotgun only hunt this year and then maybe buy a crossbow next year and only hunt with that. I'm done giving the MNDNR money for two tags to shoot one deer. I'm either going to become a firearm only hunter or decide to spend the money on a decent crossbow and alternate weapons annually.
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