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Post by Foggy on Oct 12, 2021 20:31:01 GMT -6
Just bumped into this great video on drills. I "almost" went this route.....but would have fashioned one into a 3 point drill as I have problems with some of my small plots with pull type implements. Figured I would have 1/2 the amount put into an old drill as the new Tar River Saya drill I bought....so I went that way instead.
In any case.....here is a good way to manage food plots. If you have sandy soils like I have....and Tom T has.....this is a very viable means to plant seeds and get them to grow.
Drill on!
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Post by Foggy on Oct 12, 2021 21:32:08 GMT -6
A few things I have learned recently.
1. You do not need to spend allot of of money to go no-till.
2. No till is easier and requires less time.
3. Thus, no till should be welcomed by small time operators.
4. It requires some level of experimentation and knowledge.
5. It will cost less money over time.....FAR LESS.
6. You can get stuff to grow even on dry years.
7. It's good for your soils and good for the ecology. 7.a. It will require far less inputs to your land over time. (fertilzer, chemicals)
8. It's the right thing to do for future generations.
9. You will be able to golf more and plot less.
10. You may find that SD is not as dumb as he sometimes expounds. Grin . (notice how I did not set Stu up for this?......he is a reasonable man. Grin). \\
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Post by wklman on Oct 12, 2021 22:05:18 GMT -6
A few things I have learned recently. 1. You do not need to spend allot of of money to go no-till. 2. No till is easier and requires less time. 3. Thus, no till should be welcomed by small time operators. 4. It requires some level of experimentation and knowledge. 5. It will cost less money over time.....FAR LESS. 6. You can get stuff to grow even on dry years. 7. It's good for your soils and good for the ecology. 7.a. It will require far less inputs to your land over time. (fertilzer, chemicals) 8. It's the right thing to do for future generations. 9. You will be able to golf more and plot less. 10. You may find that SD is not as dumb as he sometimes expounds. Grin . (notice how I did not set Stu up for this?......he is a reasonable man. Grin). \\ I want to wait until you've done notill for 5+ years and see what you think. A 1 time fall planting doesn't equate to any kind of data at all. I'm not trying to be negative it's just that I value true experience over a 1 time planting.
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Post by Foggy on Oct 13, 2021 6:03:57 GMT -6
I want to wait until you've done notill for 5+ years and see what you think. A 1 time fall planting doesn't equate to any kind of data at all. I'm not trying to be negative it's just that I value true experience over a 1 time planting.
Well.....in five years I might be dead. Time waits on no-man. I have tried for several years to grow food plots via other methods...and especially conventional planting of corn and beans which leave bare dirt......which encourages weeds at my place. My experience with doing things like what folks did in the 1950's was / is not working. Broadcasting requires tillage on my sandy soil. So.....there again I encourage a new flush of weeds every time I do the tillage program......and more loss of organic material.....and another loss of moisture.....which is a huge deal when farming sand. Seems a losing proposition to me.
Not saying I could not broadcast seeds successfully.....and I have. But all that tillage required has had it's costs too....in terms of passes over the land and repeated loss in organic material especially. I can add fertilizer ($$) and continue to find expensive heribcides ($$) to fight the new weed varieties and buy GMO seeds, but why??
LOTS of farmers (and food plotters) are extolling the values of doing less tillage or no-till.....and growing there own mulch. I agree it's early in this experience for me......but I have talked to enough folks and read enough to be convinced that this is the future of my farming for now. Lots of five year experiences on YouTube to look at....and get convinced.
I think a drill is widely recognized as one of the best means to plant small seeds. Nothing new here.
I'm appreciate that you may feel differently.....but I don't know what experiences you are basing your decisions on either. The world is full of nay-sayers....and if I listened to all the nay-sayers over my lifetime I would never try anything new. We're all just trying to learn. "Merica.
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Post by Catscratch on Oct 13, 2021 6:32:08 GMT -6
It's ALL about the thatch! I watched the video above about using a standard drill for no-till. It's an old school method that has been around for decades to interseed pasture. Works great unless you have good thatch, then you need a specialized drill such as what you just got Foggy. But if you don't have good thatch then why use the no-till method, it counters itself at that point as you might as well turn the soil if you aren't fostering thatch and leaving the ground unshielded. To counter this a guy with cows can mob graze the plot, then use a conventual drill to seed, then walk away as it all grows back. The thatch is still there but it's stomped into the ground or sitting there as manure. A burn can do the same if you don't have a cow. Foggy, I'm jealous of your tractor and drill! I went through your top 10 list and found I'm hitting almost all those points with TnM and cattle. If I hadn't been so successful with my methods I would probably be fretting over buying a no-till drill or just quit plotting altogether. You new adventure will be very successful, especially if you quit farming corn and beans.
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Post by sd51555 on Oct 13, 2021 6:37:47 GMT -6
A few things I have learned recently. 10. You may find that SD is not as dumb as he sometimes expounds. Grin . (notice how I did not set Stu up for this?......he is a reasonable man. Grin). \\ I'm not sure if I'm being dragged back into this or not. Be sure not to confuse our systems though. We're pointed the same direction, but still very different in tactics and goals.
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Post by Foggy on Oct 13, 2021 6:38:49 GMT -6
It's ALL about the thatch! I watched the video above about using a standard drill for no-till. It's an old school method that has been around for decades to interseed pasture. Works great unless you have good thatch, then you need a specialized drill such as what you just got Foggy. But if you don't have good thatch then why use the no-till method, it counters itself at that point as you might as well turn the soil if you aren't fostering thatch and leaving the ground unshielded. To counter this a guy with cows can mob graze the plot, then use a conventual drill to seed, then walk away as it all grows back. The thatch is still there but it's stomped into the ground or sitting there as manure. A burn can do the same if you don't have a cow. Foggy, I'm jealous of your tractor and drill! I went through your top 10 list and found I'm hitting almost all those points with TnM and cattle. If I hadn't been so successful with my methods I would probably be fretting over buying a no-till drill or just quit plotting altogether. You new adventure will be very successful, especially if you quit farming corn and beans. Yep....I may have a bag or two of corn and beans remaining.....and may try to incorporate those seeds into my mix somewhere....or not? I am not likely to grow them again.....too much input costs and too much tillage to be worth the time to me. As said....the mulch is the key.....and I still need to learn how to adapt with this new plan. Likely mistakes will occur....they always do. By reading and watching video and talking with others....I am gaining a feel for these methods tho.....and I have a willingness to try. Cat....I agree what your say about the "Thatch". That is key to this plan. Keep the weeds under the mulch created with the decaying rye....which also is keeping moisture available and providing a slow release of nitrogen as is decays due to the effects of crimping for terminating. I think I will plant buckwheat as a green manure crop in June.....and then follow in late August or September with the rye and brassica combo (similar to this years efforts....depending on what is present at that time). Likely will need to add some red clover and Gonna require I use my head more....and learn a bit more agronomy than I have in the past. Somewhat new for me. Grin.
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Post by smsmith on Oct 13, 2021 6:46:28 GMT -6
Soil wants to be alive and growing stuff all the time. Even in the winter, healthy soil has activity. Leave soil bare above or below ground and stuff you may not want to grow tends to show up
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Post by Foggy on Oct 13, 2021 6:49:28 GMT -6
One thing you guys do not know......is that I recently bought a second New Drill. Grin. Yep....was able to snatch a new five foot GENISIS drill at 2021 prices. So it's on it's way here and I will have two drills for 2022 season. Gonna sell one of those drills later next year. Likely that Tar River Saya drill will be sold.....as the RTP Genesis is a much more robust machine and is made to last a lifetime. if I wait until next year the prices will be higher and you will not get a machine (at least not easily). So.....I am again sticking my neck out a bit.....and bought a new drill. This is similar to the ones promoted by Grant Woods on his program. Now the Deertopia proving grounds will have a unit too. Grin. EDIT: Yeah...I know .....I cannot justify it.
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Post by sd51555 on Oct 13, 2021 7:14:00 GMT -6
I want to wait until you've done notill for 5+ years and see what you think. A 1 time fall planting doesn't equate to any kind of data at all. I'm not trying to be negative it's just that I value true experience over a 1 time planting. There is a lot to this very thought. I have been apprehensive about bringing in any new equipment and stuff for that very reason. I've had tons of ideas come to me over time that, at one moment or another, I was certain were the only and best way. Had I not been as skeptical, I'd have blown a pant load more money than I have and accumulated a lot more headaches. I don't even have 5 years into a system on any of my plots. They've all been cleared, constructed, or reconstructed in the last 18 months. I never picked a system and ran with it. How I got to where I am today is by solving one problem at a time within the stubborn polak framework I have in my head. There are things that are going to take years to materialize. Can there be such a thing as a high tonnage permanent polyculture plot that doesn't need maintenance inputs other than cereal and mowing? One side of me thinks yes, another thinks it's impossible, not so much that it would fail, but it would continue to evolve past what I/we think is perfect. Is it possible to end the madness of having to reapply lime? I don't know. Can we defeat the swings in the moisture cycle? I believe we can. Is there a way to grow desirable brassicas in an un-broken perennial polyculture system without weeds, nitrogen, or any other inputs? I'm 94% done on that one (and the answer is likely going to be yes). It will all take time. Fun to putz with, that's for sure.
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Post by smsmith on Oct 13, 2021 7:15:00 GMT -6
One thing you guys do not know......is that I recently bought a second New Drill. Grin. Yep....was able to snatch a new five foot GENISIS drill at 2021 prices. So it's on it's way here and I will have two drills for 2022 season. Gonna sell one of those drills later next year. Likely that Tar River Saya drill will be sold.....as the RTP Genesis is a much more robust machine and is made to last a lifetime. if I wait until next year the prices will be higher and you will not get a machine (at least not easily). So.....I am again sticking my neck out a bit.....and bought a new drill. This is similar to the ones promoted by Grant Woods on his program. Now the Deertopia proving grounds will have a unit too. Grin. EDIT: Yeah...I know .....I cannot justify it. Who the hell are you justifying shit to? You got the money. You earned the money. Spend the money.
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Post by smsmith on Oct 13, 2021 7:24:14 GMT -6
I want to wait until you've done notill for 5+ years and see what you think. A 1 time fall planting doesn't equate to any kind of data at all. I'm not trying to be negative it's just that I value true experience over a 1 time planting. There is a lot to this very thought. I have been apprehensive about bringing in any new equipment and stuff for that very reason. I've had tons of ideas come to me over time that, at one moment or another, I was certain were the only and best way. Had I not been as skeptical, I'd have blown a pant load more money than I have and accumulated a lot more headaches. I don't even have 5 years into a system on any of my plots. They've all been cleared, constructed, or reconstructed in the last 18 months. I never picked a system and ran with it. How I got to where I am today is by solving one problem at a time within the stubborn polak framework I have in my head. There are things that are going to take years to materialize. Can there be such a thing as a high tonnage permanent polyculture plot that doesn't need maintenance inputs other than cereal and mowing? One side of me thinks yes, another thinks it's impossible, not so much that it would fail, but it would continue to evolve past what I/we think is perfect. Is it possible to end the madness of having to reapply lime? I don't know. Can we defeat the swings in the moisture cycle? I believe we can. Is there a way to grow desirable brassicas in an un-broken perennial polyculture system without weeds, nitrogen, or any other inputs? I'm 94% done on that one (and the answer is likely going to be yes). It will all take time. Fun to putz with, that's for sure. I think we all need to figure out what works for us, on our particular soils, with our particular goals in mind. What works for you may or may not work for me and vice versa. Before you (or I or anybody else) can say their "system" works, you'd have to replicate it across regions and soil types. There's a big damn difference between Art's soil and mine, and we're maybe 40 minutes away from each other. What I know works here isn't likely to work there. I've tried what I do here on similar soil to Art's (actually it's sandier than his) and the results weren't awesome. It'd be the same on foggy's light soils.
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Post by Catscratch on Oct 13, 2021 7:42:33 GMT -6
Congrats on the 2nd drill Foggy! With the way things are going you'll probably make a profit on whichever one you sell.
Case in point to the comments above about perfect systems and whatnot. I'm a fan of TnM. I have almost zero equipment, inputs consist of zero fertilizer, less than 200lbs of seed a year, 1 gallon of 41% gly, and less than 5 gallons of gas... per year. R&D? I've been playing with it since the mid 1990's. Since the advent of internet I've researched the method somewhat extensively and am 100% sure that what works for me doesn't work for others.
The reason conventional farming works is due to it's predicability. Ya, a guy may have to use fertilizer and herbicide every stinking year... but he knows exactly what he's going to get when he does that.
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Post by Foggy on Oct 13, 2021 8:00:14 GMT -6
Who the hell are you justifying shit to? You got the money. You earned the money. Spend the money.
My wife for one. Grin. Somebody usually has some comment about how I spend my money.....lol. The thing is good machinery holds it's value better than many other things. I ALWAYS try to justify my expenditures.....just the German blood in me I suppose.
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Post by smsmith on Oct 13, 2021 8:26:46 GMT -6
Who the hell are you justifying shit to? You got the money. You earned the money. Spend the money.My wife for one. Grin. Somebody usually has some comment about how I spend my money.....lol. The thing is good machinery holds it's value better than many other things. I ALWAYS try to justify my expenditures.....just the German blood in me I suppose. I do too. Push comes to shove, it's pretty much unjustifiable to spend any of the money we spend on "deer stuff". I've got a bunch of acres here that I purchased for one main reason...deer hunting. Completely unjustifiable from an economic standpoint. We could eat store bought red deer backstrap multiple times a week and never come close to what those acres cost. I "justify" my deer expenses one way...I enjoy doing what I do, and what I do doesn't put us in any kind of financial difficulty. I don't imagine you do a lot of justifying for your golf costs, do you? I sure wouldn't if I was you...
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