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Post by MN Slick on Oct 13, 2021 8:27:19 GMT -6
Nice work on the Genesis Foggy! Is it the "light" version? Question for you on your summer plan. I've seen you reference a monoculture of buckwheat multiple times and am wondering why you are leaning that way? One of the 5 soil health principles critical to the whole Regen theory is planting diverse multi species mixes where the species work together to improve soil chemistry and prime it for the following crop. Why not maximize the growing season with diversity?
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Post by sd51555 on Oct 13, 2021 9:02:49 GMT -6
I think we all need to figure out what works for us, on our particular soils, with our particular goals in mind. What works for you may or may not work for me and vice versa. Before you (or I or anybody else) can say their "system" works, you'd have to replicate it across regions and soil types. There's a big damn difference between Art's soil and mine, and we're maybe 40 minutes away from each other. What I know works here isn't likely to work there. I've tried what I do here on similar soil to Art's (actually it's sandier than his) and the results weren't awesome. It'd be the same on foggy's light soils. I think that is true in some rare cases, but I don't accept 'that won't work here' very easily. At any given moment in time, we're all certain we've reached the pinnacle in achievement, that there is simply no better way than what we've got. That is true, until it isn't true any longer. I'm a big fan of indicator species as a gauge of what's possible. If I see an area growing dryland corn or dryland beans using conventional tillage with pellet fertilizer, then I will tell you with absolute certainty that anything I'm doing is also possible. If those high water high input crops can survive those conditions, that soil can do a whole lot more.
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Post by smsmith on Oct 13, 2021 9:12:31 GMT -6
I think we all need to figure out what works for us, on our particular soils, with our particular goals in mind. What works for you may or may not work for me and vice versa. Before you (or I or anybody else) can say their "system" works, you'd have to replicate it across regions and soil types. There's a big damn difference between Art's soil and mine, and we're maybe 40 minutes away from each other. What I know works here isn't likely to work there. I've tried what I do here on similar soil to Art's (actually it's sandier than his) and the results weren't awesome. It'd be the same on foggy's light soils. I think that is true in some rare cases, but I don't accept 'that won't work here' very easily. At any given moment in time, we're all certain we've reached the pinnacle in achievement, that there is simply no better way than what we've got. That is true, until it isn't true any longer. I'm a big fan of indicator species as a gauge of what's possible. If I see an area growing dryland corn or dryland beans using conventional tillage with pellet fertilizer, then I will tell you with absolute certainty that anything I'm doing is also possible. If those high water high input crops can survive those conditions, that soil can do a whole lot more. A whole lot more...what? You believe that you have a system that will produce MORE bushels of corn and/or soybeans per acre than all of our current agricultural knowledge? What's "more"? Around here, an awful lot of dryland corn and beans are irrigated. This year, if they weren't irrigated and on light soil the yield's are shit. Even spuds that weren't irrigated this year have shit for yields. If you have a system that decreases inputs and gives MORE yield then you better get off this rinkydink website and start pitching it to someone where it will pay off bigly. My "system" does just fine for feeding deer and uses limited inputs. It cannot compete however with "normal," traditional agricultural practices for tonnage/yields.
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Post by kooch on Oct 13, 2021 10:25:02 GMT -6
Have I told you guys about my system? Just wondering.
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Post by Sandbur on Oct 13, 2021 10:37:24 GMT -6
There is a lot to this very thought. I have been apprehensive about bringing in any new equipment and stuff for that very reason. I've had tons of ideas come to me over time that, at one moment or another, I was certain were the only and best way. Had I not been as skeptical, I'd have blown a pant load more money than I have and accumulated a lot more headaches.  I don't even have 5 years into a system on any of my plots. They've all been cleared, constructed, or reconstructed in the last 18 months. I never picked a system and ran with it. How I got to where I am today is by solving one problem at a time within the stubborn polak framework I have in my head.  There are things that are going to take years to materialize. Can there be such a thing as a high tonnage permanent polyculture plot that doesn't need maintenance inputs other than cereal and mowing? One side of me thinks yes, another thinks it's impossible, not so much that it would fail, but it would continue to evolve past what I/we think is perfect. Is it possible to end the madness of having to reapply lime? I don't know. Can we defeat the swings in the moisture cycle? I believe we can. Is there a way to grow desirable brassicas in an un-broken perennial polyculture system without weeds, nitrogen, or any other inputs? I'm 94% done on that one (and the answer is likely going to be yes).   It will all take time. Fun to putz with, that's for sure.  I think we all need to figure out what works for us, on our particular soils, with our particular goals in mind. What works for you may or may not work for me and vice versa. Before you (or I or anybody else) can say their "system" works, you'd have to replicate it across regions and soil types. There's a big damn difference between Art's soil and mine, and we're maybe 40 minutes away from each other. What I know works here isn't likely to work there. I've tried what I do here on similar soil to Art's (actually it's sandier than his) and the results weren't awesome. It'd be the same on foggy's light soils. I think the key in my area is injected or surface applied manure that is immediately tilled in. There was a great cover crop on the quarter section west of me. They injected dairy pot manure and tore it up. I hope some of the cover crop holds.
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Post by smsmith on Oct 13, 2021 11:29:10 GMT -6
I think we all need to figure out what works for us, on our particular soils, with our particular goals in mind. What works for you may or may not work for me and vice versa. Before you (or I or anybody else) can say their "system" works, you'd have to replicate it across regions and soil types. There's a big damn difference between Art's soil and mine, and we're maybe 40 minutes away from each other. What I know works here isn't likely to work there. I've tried what I do here on similar soil to Art's (actually it's sandier than his) and the results weren't awesome. It'd be the same on foggy's light soils. I think the key in my area is injected or surface applied manure that is immediately tilled in. There was a great cover crop on the quarter section west of me. They injected dairy pot manure and tore it up. I hope some of the cover crop holds. Manure makes a huge difference.
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Post by Foggy on Oct 13, 2021 11:36:37 GMT -6
Nice work on the Genesis Foggy! Is it the "light" version? Question for you on your summer plan. I've seen you reference a monoculture of buckwheat multiple times and am wondering why you are leaning that way? One of the 5 soil health principles critical to the whole Regen theory is planting diverse multi species mixes where the species work together to improve soil chemistry and prime it for the following crop. Why not maximize the growing season with diversity? yep....it's the light version...which is more than heavy enough in the sand I got. In fact....I dont think there are many of the "heavy" version of this drill sold. The "light" version in a 5 footer is about all I can pick up with my tractor at somewhere around 2500 lbs loaded. Pretty stout machine....weighs double of my current drill. I am not intending to have a monoculture of buckwheat....not sure where you got that idea?? I have three clover varieties and some Delar Small burnettt going.....and will have the remains of the collards, PTT, radish, winter peas and the rye that I will terminate (or the weather cycle will terminate).....and then sow the buckwheat and likely some more red clover as a warm season crop.....to get the effects of the green manure later when I plant the fall rye and winter peas and brasica mix. Not sure of the timing on those two plantings....but kinda have to go with the crop conditions and weather. I think I will plant in early to mid June.......and again in late August / early Sept. Those dates work well for me with my travels to OZ. May try to add some alfalfa at some point too.....and perhaps use up my soybeans with the buckwheat...dunno. Always looking for advice. Some guys do well with hairy vetch too....and I know some like Sudan grass.....and sorghum looks interesting to me. Lots to learn.....but I do not plan for any monoculture of anything at this point.
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Post by sd51555 on Oct 13, 2021 11:40:20 GMT -6
I think that is true in some rare cases, but I don't accept 'that won't work here' very easily. At any given moment in time, we're all certain we've reached the pinnacle in achievement, that there is simply no better way than what we've got. That is true, until it isn't true any longer. I'm a big fan of indicator species as a gauge of what's possible. If I see an area growing dryland corn or dryland beans using conventional tillage with pellet fertilizer, then I will tell you with absolute certainty that anything I'm doing is also possible. If those high water high input crops can survive those conditions, that soil can do a whole lot more. A whole lot more...what? You believe that you have a system that will produce MORE bushels of corn and/or soybeans per acre than all of our current agricultural knowledge? What's "more"? Around here, an awful lot of dryland corn and beans are irrigated. This year, if they weren't irrigated and on light soil the yield's are shit. Even spuds that weren't irrigated this year have shit for yields. If you have a system that decreases inputs and gives MORE yield then you better get off this rinkydink website and start pitching it to someone where it will pay off bigly. My "system" does just fine for feeding deer and uses limited inputs. It cannot compete however with "normal," traditional agricultural practices for tonnage/yields. When I say more, I'm saying the -it can't work here- maybe ain't so certain. Dryland means not irrigated, there are no wells or pivots. All I'm saying is get outside the boxes of corn and bean wisdom. As much as anyone thinks these guys know it all, they themselves are just as quickly trying to put break out of their old ways as much as they can safely try. Their yields have never been higher and they're still barely squeaking by. Yield per acre to them is a faulty goal, and the wise ones know it. They should be focusing on profit per acre, and inputs and resilience in a bad year drive profit just as much, if not more, than yield. But if we must, yes, I believe i can yield as much or more without fertilizer growing food plots than I can with fertilizer. But food plots. Not singular corn crops or singular bean crops. As a deer land manager, I have nothing in common with row crop farmers, so there is nothing for me to take from them. I take more from vegetable growers and livestock grazers than I do corn and bean farmers. No knock on them, I'm just not going to seek out a roofer for a toothpaste recommendation. Try to grow any one thing by itself in sterile soil with no inputs, and it will not do well at all. This is from where the belief that -all fertilizer is good and more is better- emanates. That's been our understanding since WWII, and at best it's only partially true. And I don't know if there is any money to be made off this. There's got to be a middle group in between the -it'll never work here- crowd and the crowd that already understands it, and frankly, I don't think that group is that big.
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Post by Catscratch on Oct 13, 2021 11:45:01 GMT -6
Have I told you guys about my system? Just wondering. Please, do tell!
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Post by sd51555 on Oct 13, 2021 12:27:31 GMT -6
Have I told you guys about my system? Just wondering.
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Post by Foggy on Oct 13, 2021 12:32:42 GMT -6
Fun thread. Wanders a bit.....but then so be it. I think we are all searching for the holy grail of food plot and soil longevity. It's all good. .
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Post by kooch on Oct 13, 2021 12:45:15 GMT -6
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Post by kooch on Oct 13, 2021 12:46:45 GMT -6
All in good fun of course.
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Post by Catscratch on Oct 13, 2021 13:58:10 GMT -6
All in good fun of course. Lol, Nice! Reminds me of a certain habitat salesman who claims to have invented this and that... but was a decade behind others at the time of his inventions.
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Post by kooch on Oct 13, 2021 14:21:28 GMT -6
All in good fun of course. Lol, Nice! Reminds me of a certain habitat salesman who claims to have invented this and that... but was a decade behind others at the time of his inventions. You noticed.
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