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Post by MoBuckChaser on Aug 20, 2018 11:43:01 GMT -6
I just talked to my buddy Troy. He said with Kooch's test and with the base saturation he has, he can take more calcium than other soils with little to no effect. His recs for lime would be Beet lime in that area, not pell lime because of his ph needs and cost. 4 ton one year 2 ton 2 years later. Gypsum is a good choice for sulfer, less acidic than Ammonium Sulfate. He said 2.2ppm on sulfur is low, but dont trust the number, as that can change. Just add sulfur that is recommended per crop.
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Gypsum
Aug 20, 2018 11:46:00 GMT -6
Post by MoBuckChaser on Aug 20, 2018 11:46:00 GMT -6
I just sent in a soil sample for testing at the U of MN and it says the sulfur test is not a reliable predictor of sulfur needs and that sulfur recommendations are based on crop and soil texture. So I skipped the extra sulfur testing and I'll buy a bag of gypsum with it. Back to Kooch's question on how to improve pH. I just throw on a bunch of lime - whatever is available at the best price and keep my fingers crossed. That has worked so far. Or maybe it hasn't, who the hell really knows. I know my plots look good if it rains though so I call that good enough. pH is where it's supposed to be, but I'm not sure about the other stuff. I don't have the slightest idea the differences in lime and I have to draw the line somewhere. I just buy a dump truck load for a few hundred bucks and shovel that crap by hand until it's gone 5 years later. I did go for the extra soil test that shows the calcium and magnesium levels this time around, so I'll post that info for some feedback. They are correct, sulfur and Nitrate testing are unreliable.
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Post by badbrad on Aug 20, 2018 11:46:08 GMT -6
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Post by wiscwhip on Aug 20, 2018 11:51:04 GMT -6
Dolomitic lime will increase his Mg, of which he already has a ratio of Cal/Mg that is too high on the Mg side, so no, not a good idea given he has the option.
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Post by wiscwhip on Aug 20, 2018 11:54:36 GMT -6
I just sent in a soil sample for testing at the U of MN and it says the sulfur test is not a reliable predictor of sulfur needs and that sulfur recommendations are based on crop and soil texture. So I skipped the extra sulfur testing and I'll buy a bag of gypsum with it. Back to Kooch's question on how to improve pH. I just throw on a bunch of lime - whatever is available at the best price and keep my fingers crossed. That has worked so far. Or maybe it hasn't, who the hell really knows. I know my plots look good if it rains though so I call that good enough. pH is where it's supposed to be, but I'm not sure about the other stuff. I don't have the slightest idea the differences in lime and I have to draw the line somewhere. I just buy a dump truck load for a few hundred bucks and shovel that crap by hand until it's gone 5 years later. I did go for the extra soil test that shows the calcium and magnesium levels this time around, so I'll post that info for some feedback. They are correct, sulfur and Nitrate testing are unreliable. Yup ^^^ Sulfur has a weird tendency to not read accurately based on differing soil moisture levels and soil temps, so the only REAL way to know if you are deficient is to get a plant tissue test. Nitrates leach and are used so fast by plants that the test for N is equally inaccurate.
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Gypsum
Aug 20, 2018 11:56:57 GMT -6
Post by sd51555 on Aug 20, 2018 11:56:57 GMT -6
There are lots of unknown things when you're comparing, now 4 (including mine), different labs. Here are some questions to ask: What are your recommendations based on? Crop removal? Average of all submitted samples? University recommendations? They may be looking at it four different ways. It also matters what school of thought you subscribe to. There is no consensus on how soil fertility works yet. One school of thought says pour it on and you're good. Another says you can be stacked to the gills with fertility, but if it's outta balance, you're gonna be yield limited due to tie up. Neal Kinsey is a proponent of balance. University of Iowa says Kinsey is an idiot. I subscribe to Kinsey. I was about to stomp all over the country looking for a 50 pound bag of manganese sulfate because my soil test showed I had no manganese. What I later learned, was that I had all the manganese I'd ever need, but because I had low K, my manganese was tied up and therefore didn't show as "available" on the soil test. I put the coals to my K levels and my manganese became available because of better balance. Never put on a single pound of Mg but I jumped 60 ppm. Here's my 2016 test. Here's my 2018 test after a mild shot of lime and 300 lbs 0-0-60/acre.
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Post by wiscwhip on Aug 20, 2018 11:59:42 GMT -6
And THAT ^^^ is why it is called soil science! And varying degrees of soil microbial action turn it into more voodoo than science!!!
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Post by sd51555 on Aug 20, 2018 12:13:55 GMT -6
(Let's take a moment to appreciate we hit four pages of chatter in a gypsum thread in less than a day.) ......................................... And if you didn't need a sixth curve ball, let's not forget organic matter mineralization. Kooch is sitting on 5+% OM. He might be getting some S from that. But if it's not warm and moist, you can't always count on this happening.
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Gypsum
Aug 20, 2018 12:45:48 GMT -6
Post by kooch on Aug 20, 2018 12:45:48 GMT -6
And THAT ^^^ is why it is called soil science! And varying degrees of soil microbial action turn it into more voodoo than science!!! No shit. I'm too stupid for all this. If you guys ever want to talk Enterprise Compute and Cloud Storage, recovery point objectives, recovery time objectives, IOPS and deduplication, I'm your guy. This gypsum stuff? It's too much like chemistry class. Where does a guy get Beet Lime in Northern MN?
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Gypsum
Aug 20, 2018 12:46:37 GMT -6
Post by kooch on Aug 20, 2018 12:46:37 GMT -6
Hell, we can even talk about Combat Search And Rescue operations. But organic chemistry is above my pay grade.
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Gypsum
Aug 20, 2018 12:54:32 GMT -6
Post by wiscwhip on Aug 20, 2018 12:54:32 GMT -6
I wouldn't think beet lime would be too hard to get up there, but the beet growers may be too far away and it would be cost prohibitive due to shipping distance?
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Gypsum
Aug 20, 2018 12:57:16 GMT -6
Post by kooch on Aug 20, 2018 12:57:16 GMT -6
I wouldn't think beet lime would be too hard to get up there, but the beet growers may be too far away and it would be cost prohibitive due to shipping distance? That's what I'm thinking. There's not a lot of agriculture up there. Lots of hay. The beets I see growing are all down Marshall way, and North along the West side of the state. It's only two acres, so nobody would want to do the job with a spreader, even if they could get it in there. 12 Tons is about a minimum load right?
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Post by nhmountains on Aug 20, 2018 13:28:17 GMT -6
Kooch,
It took us a while but, I think you've got something to work with.
How are you transporting the lime you spread earlier? 10 bags at a time?
I've been doing that the past two years and it's made a difference already. I'm seeing lots fewer ferns under my older apple trees and increased fruit output.
Hang in there and I'm sure you will see an improvement and get the best bang for your buck.
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Gypsum
Aug 20, 2018 13:34:30 GMT -6
Post by kooch on Aug 20, 2018 13:34:30 GMT -6
Kooch, It took us a while but, I think you've got something to work with. How are you transporting the lime you spread earlier? 10 bags at a time? I've been doing that the past two years and it's made a difference already. I'm seeing lots fewer ferns under my older apple trees and increased fruit output. Hang in there and I'm sure you will see an improvement and get the best bang for your buck. Yes we do! Thanks everybody. I have a trailer with a 1,800LB load limit. So, I buy 1,500 pounds of pell lime at a time. I load up 15 bags in a sled and drag it to the far end of the skinny plot. Then I reload the sled with the other 750 pounds and drag it to the South end of the plot. Finally, I load up my 150 pound spreader and open it up enough so it's empty right as I get to the North end. I fill it up there, then repeat heading the other direction, back and forth, back and forth.
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Post by MoBuckChaser on Aug 20, 2018 13:34:31 GMT -6
And THAT ^^^ is why it is called soil science! And varying degrees of soil microbial action turn it into more voodoo than science!!! No shit. I'm too stupid for all this. If you guys ever want to talk Enterprise Compute and Cloud Storage, recovery point objectives, recovery time objectives, IOPS and deduplication, I'm your guy. This gypsum stuff? It's too much like chemistry class. Where does a guy get Beet Lime in Northern MN?Call Crystal Sugar in Crookston or Moorehead.
I think Beet Lime has a high ENP, Whip? You know about it?
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